At least future generations will know that not all of us were self-destructive, shortsighted fools. Knowing folks like this exist gives me hope.

trade-free.org/

💕

#TradeFree

@aral say this were adopted globally and it was only demand ↔ supply (but no prices).

- how can we use scarce goods efficiently without a price mechanism?
- why would people produce goods that aren't fun to make?
- what would stop drug users from consuming but not producing?

@bjorn @aral

You assume that if we removed money and markets everything would stay the same. It wouldnt.
And no its not human nature anything.

@msavoritias @aral

If the world relied on purely gifts, with no prices or trade, it’d be almost impossible to organise specialised labour to produce goods.

Gifts are produced through cooperation and a larger process. For a tribe built on love/trust in a tiny area with primitive goods, it’d be doable.

@aral @msavoritias @bjorn I can give you many examples, but here's one: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Na… . These people save lives all around UK. All are volunteers. Their job is specialized. See a ton of examples here www.directory.trade-free.org/

You can have specialized labor based on volunteers. Even in today's very competitive and trade-based society.

@tio @aral @msavoritias

Almost all the charities linked in that directory pay massive amounts in direct salaries.

Look at their reports for direct salary info:

St Jude — $600m/year
Red Cross — $972m/year
RNLI — £83m/year
Heart — $392m/year

For RNLI specifically, 68% of all their costs are salaries.

Almost all the non-charity examples there are for nonscarce items — software, where there's no additional cost for each additional item produced.

Scarcity is the physical barrier.

@aral @msavoritias @bjorn Of course Wikipedia also pays a few people and for the servers. But we re talking about human motivation here. RNLI, Wikipedia, and the like, rely almost entirely on volunteers. So, millions of humans, doing extremely specialized work, without wanting anything in return. In a society in which the opposite is enforced.

I am not sure what point you are trying to get across? That we can't have specialized work unless we force those people to do those things?

@tio @aral @msavoritias

Good question — the point is clearly laid out in the RNLI report, and applies to all large and complex charities:

"There are a number of specific skills needed to keep such an organisation running as safely as possible and at peak efficiency." — and these are paid staff.

Volunteers mainly carry out the unskilled tasks — fundraising.

No force should ever be involved. When you hire someone, you enter a voluntary agreement to trade money for services,

@aral @msavoritias @bjorn
Volunteers mainly carry out the unskilled tasks — fundraising.
No. The volunteers are saving the lives of humans there. Same as Doctors Without Borders. Same as White Helmets. Same as so many programmers doing complex software. Same as millions around the world. In, again, a society where the opposite is enforced.
No force should ever be involved. When you hire someone, you enter a voluntary agreement to trade money for services,
Not at all. When I am born on this planet I have to enter the trade-system else I cannot survive. This makes me no voluntarily do that, but forcefully. And you do not trade money for services. You trade your skills, energy, time - basically yourself - , for goods/services. Money is just a way to measure these trades.

@tio @aral @msavoritias

While I appreciate you believe that Doctors without Borders, White Helmet personnel and RNLI crew aren't paid — however this is sadly factually incorrect.

They all pay salaries to their specialised workers. You can find salaries on Glassdoor or their websites.

e.g. doctorswithoutborders.org/care

@tio @aral @msavoritias

On being forced into trade — we are born into a world of scarcity. We work and contribute in order to get value from others in return. If we don't work, we don't live.

Civilised societies will never let those who are disabled/unable-to-work to die — but for those who can work, they should. It's how we contribute to advancement of the species.

We can't sit around, not work, and allow others to keep us alive. It makes us reliant on them.

And that's slavery.

@aral @msavoritias @bjorn
On being forced into trade — we are born into a world of scarcity.
Where is the scarcity? More homes than homeless people; more cars than people can drive, more food than people can eat, more clothes than people can wear. We throw every year 350 cruise-ships full of electronics and 500 of textiles. We throw 40-50% of all edible food. Supermarkets are full of stuff. Where is the scarcity?
We work and contribute in order to get value from others in return
Not necessary anymore. We have so much stuff we create mountains of waste out of it. We should share the stuff rather than trade for it and create so much waste.
those who can work, they should
Why? Why should we be forced to work in order to live in this society? In order to access the abundant stuff we already have?
It's how we contribute to advancement of the species.
It is how we contribute to the destruction of our lives, keeping ourselves busy with nonsense and repetitive jobs. It is how we destroy the planet, create a lot of waste, idiotic and unnecessary jobs and products. Just to keep the religion of trade alive.
We can't sit around, not work, and allow others to keep us alive.
Oh we do worse than that. We create useless jobs and useless lives, and waste, while just a tiny few keep us alive with necessary "jobs" and inventions. The rest do useless stuff. I would rather see humans sit around doing nothing than consume and consume and waste and destroy.

@tio @aral @msavoritias

Where is the scarcity? Everywhere.

Everything we need to reach a goal is scarce.

Time. Goods.

There is a finite amount, and this is a limitation of the physical universe — unfair as that may seem.

There isn't enough space for everyone to have a beachfront house.

There aren't enough semiconductors for us all to have an Xbox. (there's a shortage at the moment)

The idea that we have abundance does not stand up to logic or basic reason.

Abundance is an illusion.

@tio @aral @msavoritias

"Why should we be forced to work"?

If we can't agree on the same physical reality of scarcity, this is going to be difficult.

In a world of scarcity, we must produce in order to create more goods/services (the "means" which help others reach their goals).

If you're not a producer, you're reliant on the production work of others.

This is why (while charity is noble) we should encourage people to be self sufficient and not reliant on charity.

This leads to growth 💹

@aral @msavoritias @bjorn So what is the answer to "Why should we be forced to work"?. The fact that we live in a scarce world and the only way to distribute this scarcity is to force humans to create endless and (many times) useless jobs for the sake of distributing the scarce resources? Is that the answer?

@tio @aral @msavoritias

Nobody is forced to work, unless they're slaves.

The reality of human existence is that we cannot live without food, water and shelter.

These things are scarce, and the only way to reduce scarcity is to produce.

And to do this, each person should focus on doing what they do better than others. In economics, it's the law of association / law of comparative advantage.

This way, the entire of society benefits.

If nobody works, we will suffer, starve and die out.

@aral @msavoritias @bjorn
Nobody is forced to work, unless they're slaves.
Do we have a choice? I create a lot of work since 2010. Books, videos, documentaries, online tools. I give them to others. Thousands upon thousands benefit from them. And yet if a few friends didn't help me financially out of their kindness, I would die. Have nothing to eat. How am I not forced to trade in this society in order to live? Do I have any other option?
These things are scarce, and the only way to reduce scarcity is to produce.
It is hard to argue that they are scarce when we throw every year some 40-50% of all edible food.
And to do this, each person should focus on doing what they do better than others. In economics, it's the law of association / law of comparative advantage.

This way, the entire of society benefits.

Society today is going downhill. Climate change, inequality, waste, pollution, biodiversity loss, monopolies, plastic. Endless. How is this society an advantage to anyone?
If nobody works, we will suffer, starve and die out.
And this is why we should decouple "work" from having access to at least our basic needs. Else we will always force ourselves to work in order to survive. And this is insanity in an abundant world.

@tio @aral @msavoritias

If you provide value to others, and they provide value in return, that's great.

But if you're reliant on donations or charity, you're dependant on others... which is fundamentally unhealthy.

The food problem is a mixture of reality (if you buy brocolli and don't cook it in time, you'll throw it out) — as well as a lack of free trade infrastructure to distribute it in other countries.

The best way is to promote economic freedom in those countries.

@tio @aral @msavoritias

It's 2am where I am, so I've got to bail. Thanks for the conversation.

It clearly needs a longer form discussion, as we're in two separate realities of understanding, and short posts can't cover it.

Really recommend investing time in that video course. It'd help strengthen the fundamental concepts of the Trade-Free project.

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@aral @msavoritias @bjorn We can have a live chat via our TROMcast (podcast) if you'd like to. It is more direct and we can pay closer attention to our points. We can settle for a date/time. I am always open to other views.

@tio @aral @msavoritias

Thanks for the invite — will definitely think about it. I'm in Australia and have a full workload at the moment.

Because I'm not an expert, I wouldn't be the best advocate for Austrian economics, but I could certainly give it a try. A Tom Woods-type person might be a more informative and well rounded guest.

Do you have a link to the podcast so I can check it out? Had a search in my podcast app but nothing showed :(

@aral @msavoritias @bjorn We also have a public Matrix chatroom matrix.to/#/#chat:matrix.trom.… where we invite anyone for discussing such topics. It is crucial for this TROM project to be challenged. Else we become cultish.

@tio @aral @msavoritias

I'd be interested in that. I will endeavour to read the book you mentioned about money in the meantime.

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